Seeking some food for thought

[bachphi]

I have a mix of machines that I want to monitor its uptime/idle status and such. Since they are mix, I am thinking of adding some photoeyes to detect their output/running status, connect them to a PLC. Then use AAHMI to display a screen showing status of each machine, display production counts, maybe green color for running,  or yellow for not seeing activity more than 30 min, red  for more than 1 hour .... then perhaps send to .

If you can share some thoughts, I will be greatly appreciative!

[Phrog30]

The field devices you are adding are going to be terminated in a new PLC, or each PLC for the machines (I assume each machine has a PLC).  I suggest reading High Performance HMI.  I wasn't onboard at first, but I'm since a believer.  The basics is it gets rid of silly colors.  So, no more green, red, yellow.  Just search Google for high performance HMI. 

[bachphi]

Yeah, all field devices are going to the new PLC.  Are you talking about PlantPax from Rockwell? For a small number of machines, a full fledged from PlantPax maybe over killed?

[Phrog30]

No on PlantPax.  I wouldn't use that if it was your money.  Unless the customer requests it, I will NEVER use a Rockwell HMI again.  If I were to recommend a SCADA/HMI other than AHMI, it would be Ignition.  I'm biased, but it's the best out there.

High performance HMI is a kind of standard/philosophy, not hardware or software.  One thing that is different then people are used to is colors.  No longer is it "acceptable" to use colors like green, red, yellow.  Obviously, the customer is still right in that they get what they want.. right?  But, the more subdued grey scale is the new thing.  If you look around, everything is going that way.  Example, look at the sports tickers on TV.  Ten years ago the scoreboard, stats, etc, were all 3D and fancy.  Things would spin and animate.  Now, they are flat, dull, and just give the info, no more.  Windows 10 has kind of gone that way too.

Some links, just from Google...

https://www.isa.org/standards-publications/isa-publications/intech-magazine/2012/december/system-integration-the-high-performance-hmi/
https://www.rockwellautomation.com/resources/downloads/rockwellautomation/pdf/events/automation-fair/2011/psug/afpsug11_ed09.pdf
https://www.amazon.com/High-Performance-HMI-Handbook/dp/0977896919
https://docs.inductiveautomation.com/display/DOC79/High+Performance+HMI+Techniques

I would look at dashboards, this is something that is getting requested a lot by plants. 

[Wizard_D]

Plant PAX is very easy to program with, but can be a royal pain if you don't understand it , and Ive cleaned up some messes.

High performance HMI's , I say according to who , Somebody wrote a book and sold the idea,  bland grey screens maybe fine in a control room with many screens and you need alarms to pop yes but out in the field operators don t like it , If I have to bend down or move around to get a clear picture, thats not performance at all , that's a mistake waiting to happen . Even this new style forum is hard to look at , unless my laptop screen is positioned just right you have a hard time telling some of the fields apart, In the past 3 or 4 years Ive shown customers two options for HMI's and not one has picked the bland so called high performance screens.

[Phrog30]

I really don't think we need to get in a debate over High Performance HMI, at least not in this thread.  But, I will share a few thoughts.
1.  HMI/SCADA isn't a one-size-fits-all thing!  Anyone that thinks otherwise is a moron!
2.  I never read the book, https://www.amazon.com/High-Performance-HMI-Handbook/dp/0977896919.  I did thumb through it.  I thought it was stupid.  My initial thoughts were the authors had no clue what they were talking about.  I don't feel that strongly now, but do think they didn't address some things clearly.
3.  Developing HMI/SCADA for an OEM/Machine and to a control room type plant isn't the same thing.  The book seems to tailor towards the control room operation, where there is somebody camped out all day long.  I believe they missed on machine control.
4.  Customers will always differ in what they want.  However, the customer isn't always right.  The comment that for years a customer was given two choices, and never picked a certain style is silly.  That doesn't mean the other style was wrong.  People are still complaining about this new website.  Why?  How hard is it to read a website?  The problem is people are used to certain ways and can't change.  So, it's not one choice is better than the other.  As for this website (getting off topic), I see why it was changed and I welcome the change.  There are some quirks, but for the most part, it's better.
5.  High Performance HMI isn't about a book... at least for me.  There are a lot of things I have no desire to change, but there are some things I have adopted.  One, I still think it's great to have an overview that kind of mimics a P&ID.  It's great for new operators, they can quickly see how things are laid out.  A dashboard doesn't do that.  But, dashboards are great!  I think you can have both.  Two, colors.  I still use green for running, but I don't do red for stopped, like I did 10 years ago.  I have customers that want red when it's running.  I think that is silly, but it's their standard.  The key is making your application easily configurable.  So, make a global setting that changes the colors.  Then they are changed quickly and easily.  Three is graphics.  Ten years ago I made fancy graphics.  I even showed saw dust when a board entered a gang saw.  How was that helpful?  It wasn't.  What a waste of time.  Showing tank levels through a cutout is nice, but it falls short.  High Performance HMI takes it further.  Show a bar graph for tank level if you want, but showing a trend/sparkline as well is best.  They can quickly see history and if the levels are in operating range.

So, my point for bringing this up in the beginning.  Showing a screen that displays colors for states is fine, but why stop there?  For me, I would rather see a trend showing production for the last hour, or even shift.  I'm going to bet any customer would as well.  If they don't like what they see, I'm going to be honest and say you didn't do it right! 

I think this example from Ignition is how I approach High Performance HMI...
https://docs.inductiveautomation.com/display/DOC79/High+Performance+HMI+Techniques. 
They didn't completely change, they subdued the graphics, which I like.  They added sparkline on the tanks.  In their example, the blue region is the normal operating range.  You can quickly see the problem areas.  You could be color blind and still know what's going on!  But, even this example isn't right for every application.  Part of the conversation has to be to know when to use what.

Just my two pennies...

[bachphi]

Thank You for some 'hot' food for thoughts this Sunday, this will keep me warm until the vortex blowing down this coming week.
As someone who hates to RTFM, you are killing me with the books, but nevertheless they are some food for thoughts.
I do see the point where someone put in a lot of info and different colors in a tiny screen that will wash out the essential info that it was trying to convey.

Back to the point, what would be most important info that one should put on the main screen?  production counts perhaps?, then some indications that a machine that has been idled/down for some time, and here the red and orange color may 'bring out' the needed warning to someone who were glancing over it, right? Next , a click on that 'red' label will show a screen with more details on that particular cell.

[jazzplayermark]

I think what you put on the screen depends very much on your audience. I have one customer that has roaming technicians that assist the operators. They want 'big' flashing lights when the machine is not running. Another has managers that look at numbers and love digital panel meters.

Personally, I like numbers and charts. Production rates might also benefit some. For those that use statistical process control the trending charts are what they use to optimize their processes. I also like a little color but I use it sparingly. I try to add just enough to give the screen a little flavor without being overwhelming.

When given total freedom of the design I almost always try to show as much P&ID as possible with pertinent data . I don't do all that much with graphics as I believe that should not be the focal point of the screen and sometimes it takes up valuable space. Also I'm not very good with graphics.

[Wizard_D]

As someone mentioned, what you put on the screen depends very much on your audience. Personally if its on a running process or machine , the main screen should have a well laid graphic representation of the process if possible so an operator can easily see what is happening and goto to the needed screen from there.

I also like a little color but I use it sparingly. I also add just enough to give the screen a little flavor without being overwhelming. The Minimalist thing is not for me , The subdued graphics does have its drawbacks , depending on what screen its on , the light color shades are not always clear to see the differences and actually can make a screen appear too busy looking.  Operators should not have to hunt around a screen to find what they need , is the point I'm trying to make. With High performance HMI's that seems to be to often the case .

I too use green for running and only use red / yellow for alarms. I always keep the P&ID in mind when designing screens. Depending on the HMI Good graphics can sometimes is the focal point if it tells the right story.


I still prefer the OLD one in the link below, although I would add some of the features of the HI performance one.

https://docs.inductiveautomation.com/display/DOC79/High+Performance+HMI+Techniques.

my two cents worth
Wizard_D

Out of curiosity
I get around to many different operations and Plants. I will do a survey in the next month or so ,and I will track the numbers
I will print out both pictures in the link above , and ask one  a simple question , which one would you prefer in your operation.


Advanced HMI is Awesome , I like the fact that you can build nice HMI's from its framework without really knowing much VB

[bachphi]

You mentioned Ignition. Given just 2 tags to monitor, one is RDY_TO_RECEIVE from upstream operation and RDY_TO_SEND for downstream operation. For example: operation 01 is RDY_TO_SEND to #02, but 02 is not ready, therefore that tag will stay on until 02 is ready, can Ignition  and/or its historian feature do any meaningful thing with it? 

[Phrog30]

AdvancedHMI is more than capable of doing what you need. But, ignition is very powerful. There's not much it can't do. Development software is free and you can run clients in demo mode for two hours, with unlimited resets. So, download and try it out. If you are interested, I suggest getting in touch with their sales, they will schedule a web meeting and show you everything, including pricing. Ignition is database centric. That's where it shines.